Molly is a writer and iconic Valley Girl. You can read her in tons of magazines like Elle, InStyle, the New York Times Magazine and The New Yorker. She also wrote the introduction to the newest collection of Eve Babitz essays, “I Used To Be Charming: The Rest Of Eve Babitz.” We talk about Comrade Britney, Mimi Zhu, Lana Del Rey, Rihanna, Grace Jones, Madonna, Eve Babitz, Joan Didion, Susan Sontag and “The Murder of Laci Peterson.” We also talk about interviewing celebrities for magazines, clearing our heads at LA malls and pining for clothes at the old Betsey Johnson store in Sherman Oaks.
Molly tells us about organizing Angelenos around housing inequality and describes how hosting the Olympics causes cities to fast track gentrification, escalate policing and further criminalize homelessness. She also shares the history of her grandmother’s own experiences as a Jewish-German Olympic athlete in pre-WWII Germany.
Follow @NOlympics LA for more on that and @mollylambert on IG and Twitter <3
Also, listen to Molly's podcast Nightcall with cohosts Tess Lynch and Emily Yoshida every Monday. Call their hotline at (240) 466 4448 to leave them a message about PLASTIC SURGERY all April.
And check out Molly's special Summer House quarantine podcast via her Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mollyssleazyfriends/posts
Thanks to our audio producer and sound designer Margot Padilla <3 First ep recorded on Skype as we socially distance!
Molly is a writer and iconic Valley Girl. You can read her in tons of magazines like Elle, InStyle, the New York Times Magazine and The New Yorker. She also wrote the introduction to the newest collection of Eve Babitz essays, “I Used To Be Charming: The Rest Of Eve Babitz.” We talk about Comrade Britney, Mimi Zhu, Lana Del Rey, Rihanna, Grace Jones, Madonna, Eve Babitz, Joan Didion, Susan Sontag and “The Murder of Laci Peterson.” We also talk about interviewing celebrities for magazines, clearing our heads at LA malls and pining for clothes at the old Betsey Johnson store in Sherman Oaks.
Molly tells us about organizing Angelenos around housing inequality and describes how hosting the Olympics causes cities to fast track gentrification, escalate policing and further criminalize homelessness. She also shares the history of her grandmother’s own experiences as a Jewish-German Olympic athlete in pre-WWII Germany.
Follow @NOlympics LA for more on that and @mollylambert on IG and Twitter <3
Also, listen to Molly's podcast Nightcall with cohosts Tess Lynch and Emily Yoshida every Monday. Call their hotline at (240) 466 4448 to leave them a message about PLASTIC SURGERY all April.
And check out Molly's special Summer House quarantine podcast via her Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/mollyssleazyfriends/posts
Thanks to our audio producer and sound designer Margot Padilla <3 First ep recorded on Skype as we socially distance!
Hi Tierney, you're about to hear me. Talk to Molly Lambert, a writer from Los Angeles and Valley girl icon. You can read Molly's work in magazines like Elle in style, the New York times magazine and the new Yorker. She also authored the introduction to the newest collection of Eve Babitz's essays,"I used to be charming: the rest of these Babbitz" and is one of the hosts of night call podcast with new episodes dropping every Monday. I'm going to read you a little bit of Molly's introduction to the Eve Babitz collection. So these are Molly Lambert's words. I was nervous to read the title essay to this collection Babitz first sustained writing about the 1997 accident that largely put an end to her writing career because I worried about what it would do to the intertwined with toys Babitz and LA time and time again. In her work, Babitz had crushed the notion that women were objects rather than subjects. She simply effortlessly embodied both rules. Despite being a writer myself and knowing full well that writing is an act of prolonged seduction that involves portraying oneself as maybe a little bit funnier, sexier, and more self aware than the reality. I was afraid to discover that there was a sadder, more vulnerable soul inside the confident public Babitz could she just like me, have been projecting a fearlessness in her writing that isn't fully representative of who she really is. The answer of course is yes, of course, she's vulnerable and human and cognizant of her own brashness and so am I, and it's not only fine, it's wonderful. My friends would kill me if I died is what Bobbitt says about her accident. Joking, but telling the truth to be a female artist is to put your own stubborn obsessions above all else in a world that still expects you to take care of other people while setting your own obsessive interests aside throughout her life, Babitz moved amongst stubborn creative men who did exactly as they please, who did only exactly as they pleased, and she did the same in her own way to a more radical effect. To be impulsive is to be accident prone. To follow your passions is to risk letting them consume you. And women with great appetites for life are often demonized for their desires, just as men are lionized for theirs. Again, that was some of Molly Lambert's introduction to, I used to be charming. The rest of these[inaudible] check out the book. It's tons of individual pieces from evaporates and of course Molly and I hope you enjoy this conversation. Tierney Finster Molly Lambert, eight one eight baby.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the first episode of Tierney talks recorded from my bedroom more specifically my bed. I'm so happy to be here. Skyping with Molly Lambert. Hi. Yay. Are you, you're at home right now or are you in the car? On the couch. Nice. And do you live on like he lives in like Highland park or Pasedena yeah,
Speaker 3:live in like the border land of Mount Washington and Highland park. Like technically Mount Washington, but they call it Highland park.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my aunt, um, my mom's oldest sister lives in Mount Washington and growing up in the Valley I thought she lived like so far away.
Speaker 3:No, I totally think, think of places I thought were like so far away from the Valley Dodger stadium also, I like no idea where that was
Speaker 2:like we got to stop and get a sandwich, you know, like in the whole outing because so far away,
Speaker 3:right. It's like a wagon trail.
Speaker 2:I know. I think about that like, um, when I think about like growing up in the Valley creatively, what I'm really interested in, like telling certain stories about is how you can be so insider outsider. Like you have this like experience coming into LA and like getting your sense of geography as if you moved from like far away. Yeah. You could've been spending your whole time there too.
Speaker 3:It's a little bit like New Jersey is my feeling. It's like you're so close.
Speaker 2:Just close enough. Yeah. If you're real determines you'll be able to just take the red line. That's a whole, that's what I did. Um, so obviously we've been all socially distance at home. Um, I wanted to tell you that your power as a cultural selector is so strong because all you had to do was tweet about Lacey Peterson. And I wasn't even sure if I was watching the same documentary as you were, but like ever since I read you mentioned the name, I was like, I would really like to know more about her right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's weird how things are so weird now that in a way true crime feels like escapism. Yes. Things that a few months ago I might've been like, this is too dark and depressing. Now I'm like, well, you know who can even like get close enough to someone to murder them right now.
Speaker 2:Right. Like we're safe in that regard. I feel you. Because I think when I started it, it was probably Monday or Tuesday this week and it only took me like one evening and then a quick morning followup session to finish. And basically when I turned to this series, I was in probably one of my worst moods, I would say funky, smooth as a synonym for depressed, I guess just like feeling, uh, I was totally feeling bad. And then turn to Lacey to like fully disengage from this reality.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's just very absorbing. I didn't really know anything about that case other than that I had watched gone girl, which is being based on it kind of in a fantasy way, but I didn't realize it was in the two thousands I think I just assumed it was in the 90s because all the big true crime stories are from the 90s so I think I was probably in college when it happened, so I definitely just wasn't watching cable news enough to be up on something like that. Yeah, it's totally fascinating. And the documentary that I watched was called the murder of Lacey Peterson.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's just six parter, right? Yeah. But there's like two on Hulu. So interesting.
Speaker 3:But yeah, the thing I thought was so interesting about it is that it takes place in Modesto. And so there's all this stuff also about Modesto and how it's like supposed to be this, you know, perfect California excerpt. It's got all this,
Speaker 2:darn, that was the craziest part of the documentary to me. Like I was kinda like waiting for the dark cloud of Modesto does surface like factually because the uh, the one I watched, they're like setting it up to be this American. I kind of like place, I'm like, Modesto is not there. Like Modesto is not to say it's not a great place to live, you know? But I think I just have some cousins and Merce said where I was like, no one is like going all out for Modesto, you know?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well I, there's a part where they show the logo of the town and it's like water, water, wealth, something and health. And then later this guy is like, Oh yeah, my students all called it like murder meth and auto theft.
Speaker 2:It's so good. I didn't know, I wasn't ever tabloids like super intensely around 2000 that like I think the case is 2001 2002 and then all the way through like 2005 and I remember I was just too scared of the themes to engage, like kind of annoyed, you know, knowing
Speaker 3:mean I remember, you know, I feel like gone girl sort of made me more aware of it where I was just like, Oh right, this guy, he was the perfect marriage. He killed his wife. But then this documentary made me, you know, I still think he probably did kill her. It was what I came away from this thinking. But this documentary is really good because it just shows how the cops really fucked up the police work and the trial was totally fucked up.
Speaker 2:It was horrible. I mean it basically goes through so many, basically they were just obsessed with the Scott storyline and every, there was so many like different viable pieces of evidence that were like offered. They weren't even found, like people were calling in with evidence that was just never like followed up on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of these true crime documentaries, really that's what they're about is about how the system is like set up to make these people guilty whether they are or not because that is what people want. Right. Um, and in this case it was like, well also there was all this to crime television and people like Nancy grace on TV, like talking about Scott Peterson and saying stuff that was actually just false about the case, but saying it's so much and really just bill buying him so much that people were just like thirsty for his head on a platter whether he had done it or not. Like they didn't care.
Speaker 2:Right. Which is understandable. I guess if you think about all the like Vic, I mean you see those women like gathering outside the courthouse and celebrating. Yeah. I guess it's like part of me was like, okay, I see how so much crime, especially crime against women goes like just nobody gets justice. Of course that's not that I, the death penalty is justice because I don't anyway, but like it's just crazy to see the like hordes cheering for it and that they said it was more popular like in the actual trial space that there was more people there than the Michael Jackson child.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It just like the tabloid effication of a, yeah. It's also similar to the OJ trial where it's like the actual details of the case, sort of like the cultural imagination of the case, like just runs away from it into this other place that's about just like broader issues like, you know, racial justice and the police in LA. But in this case it didn't feel like these were like women who were passionate about domestic violence cases. It just felt like they were like women who watch too much TV and
Speaker 2:yeah. Well Nancy grace fans.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It made, it made me really be like Nancy Grace's bad. Y'all. Like she doesn't care. And there's a part at the end where they're like, well how do you, you know, what do you think about like knowing these details? Like she just doesn't claim any culpability for it. She's like, well, I'll just do what I had to do and that's my job and you know, he was a bad man and now he's going to,
Speaker 2:even during it they keep being like, Nancy, you're a prosecutor. Like you're not speaking like the way you're talking about this isn't making sense as a prosecutor. And she's like, well I'm not in court right now. I'm planning now.
Speaker 3:The vision. Yeah. And the doctors are really smart thing also, which was to sort of juxtapose those clips of Nancy grace and other tabloid journalists just like saying stuff that was blatantly false about the case because it was like exciting and good TV with a George W. Bush lying us into the Iraq war. Right. It, it like makes this very clear parallel of like, okay, here's the moment where we crossed over into like what makes good TV just completely overriding what actually is happening, which feels like the world that we live in now, like extremely to me. Yeah,
Speaker 2:totally. Like they make a point of just feeding the 24 hour news cycle and like there's someone in the doc is like, if you want like expert, I don't know the quote, but they're like, if you want expert reporting, you wouldn't be sharing that reporting 24, seven, you know?
Speaker 3:Right. And like the, you know, as in gone girl, the fact is that Scott Peterson was definitely cheating on his wife and they sort of use that to be like, Oh well a man who would like lie to his wife about having sex with somebody else because we know is capable of anything. But it just seems possible that maybe he was cheating on his wife but not planning to kill her. Although they don't obviously make a great case. I mean there's sort of like maybe these robbers did it. Um,
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 3:So with like Scott is the main suspect, you know, but when they go through the trial, you're just like, this should have been a hung jury for sure. Like there's definitely reasonable doubt if you actually listen to the facts of the case. Like, they can't prove it and there's no body. So like, you know, and then there was a body but like they still, I don't know, it just raised a lot of reasonable doubt for me where I was like, you know, if, if I were a juror on this case, I would not be able to like fully in my conscience say that he did it 100%. And there's even a juror who says that and they get rid of it.
Speaker 2:I was going to say the foreman basically who's like supposed to be the kind of, he's just not letting it move along too quickly and he's wanting to go through it really objective Lee because he's like a lawyer and a doctor or something crazy and um, they're like, we need him out.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And they were placing them with somebody who's like[inaudible]
Speaker 2:Oh, strawberry shortcake short cow. She's the true winner. Like basically this juror gets added to the case, the press, or at least that are like the local press camp out there for her, refer to her strawberry shortcake cause she has like bright pink hair. But even in the earlier episodes before she's introduced, like they showed some court footage with her in it and I was just like, who is this character? I need her really relieved.
Speaker 3:She has amazing style, but she's, she's definitely evil. It's like she wants to be the person who puts Scott Peterson away, which is should disqualify you from being on the jury for that case. But they were like, no, that's perfect. Let's replace the person who has reasonable doubts about this with someone who just thinks he's guilty so we can like put them away and then, you know, put it on TV. Like
Speaker 2:who had lied about ever being involved in a court case before? Turns out she had like submitted some kind of like petition for her own safety while pregnant. So like when you're seeing her give this emotionally fueled like speech after the sentences made public or the verdicts made public, she's like straight up calling Scott Peterson and asshole after they're like sentencing him to death. It's like,
Speaker 3:right, right. And again, it's like it just becomes about something else. It's just about the fact that like people don't get justice for the most part for domestic violence and for, you know, women getting killed in domestic violence incidents and it's just like, they're like, he just becomes like the symbol of that where they're just like, okay, we can't put them all away. We can put this one guy away. But it just completely overrides how the justice system is supposed to work.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like I, I also just thought it was interesting since I haven't watched a ton of true crime stuff, like I'm still just really into entertain that. Like they have all the real police calls and just the access that these like documentarians get. And I really liked it.
Speaker 3:There's like the woman who is reporting the story from the beginning locally and she seems sort of like on the level, like there's, that's what's funny is it's like there's some real journalists at the beginning and it's a local story at the beginning it's like a Modesto story and then people, it just gets picked up by cable news and it just turns into this other thing. And like, in part it's because Scott Peterson is like this handsome dude who looks exactly like Ben Affleck.
Speaker 2:That's what I was just gonna say. Like, I, uh, I was watching it with, um, I'm forgetting this new word for like the person you have sex with that you're quarantined with at home, but, uh, whatever. My domestic partner, uh, we lost it together and he has never seen gone girl. And I was like, Oh, I have a treat for you because the Ben Affleck parallelism is just too real.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And there's some like specific that are in gone girl. Um, and also the book on girl, if you haven't read it, but Gillian Flynn super recommended as a quarantine read. It's like an eight page Turner. Um, but yeah, he also kinda looks like Dean Cain. He's played by Kane I think in another bio.
Speaker 2:That's actually really good too. Yeah,
Speaker 3:there's like this big moment in the book and the movie where he's at the vigil for his, his missing wife. Um, and he's like giving the speech about how they need to find her. And then like right after he gives the speech, he like does this little weird shitbag smile and that's the photo they run everywhere. It's like the picture of him smiling and that is totally what happened with Scott Peterson. I didn't know that was like specifically from the case. It's like they get a photo of him like laughing with somebody at the vigil and then they run it everywhere. Like heartless Scott Peterson laughing it up while his wife is missing. He doesn't care. Um, and it's just me
Speaker 2:crazy. But then he, it seems like the press is being the crazy party in that case, but then you find out like the real moment that that's based on what Scott Peterson, he was like at vigil for Lacey and Modesto with all the family on like new year's Eve and then he's calling his girlfriend Amber Fry being like, Norman D was not, I'm in Paris. Like
Speaker 3:it'd be, that is a crazy moment. When he said Paris, I can see the fireworks. I thought the whole thing is like, he might be a shitty guy, but like does that make him a murderer?
Speaker 2:I really don't think it does. Like I never thought I was going to be in a position to really give a fuck to not defend Scott Peterson, but it's like, I really don't, I really wouldn't be like, Oh, I think you for sure did it. Like I don't usually
Speaker 3:the reasonable doubt. And when they just got into like, Oh, there's all these witnesses that the cops didn't listen to you and they get those witnesses in the documentary, it'd be like, Oh, I saw her jogging on that day. Like she definitely made it all the way home. Um, you know, the one thing that does point to Scott Peterson's guilt is like, why was the body in the San Francisco Bay? Right. But then they do this like experiment to like prove that it would have been hard for him to get the body out of the defense claims they did. Yeah. Um, but I, I came out of this documentary, like, what do I know about anything who re who can say, um, but it was thinking like, yeah, that the justice system is bad and fucked up right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just made me scared for anything to happen to anybody cause like it doesn't mean shit. And I felt really uncomfortable with like how it made me feel about juries. Like obviously I support a free and fair trial for everyone. It's just like the way that jury functioned was, I mean I know we can't talk about Scott Peterson this whole time, but like the idea that one of the jurors during this extremely high profile trial was going to a bar getting drunk and bragging about the book deal he was going to get after.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's definitely a condemn, sort of like the tabloid trial as a, as an institution that now exists. But yeah, it's just a fascinating documentary. Uh, thank you for sure. It's also, yeah, it's funny to like go back to the era of nine 11 in the Iraq war and be like, Oh, this feels less stressful than now, which it didn't at the time. Yeah, totally. And you done, have you done tiger King yet?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I am. I plowed through that one and I actually really want to listen to your podcast night call. Do a full round table or like crosstalk on it. But what was that experience like? Like what was your take?
Speaker 3:We had different opinions at night call cause Emily Yoshida really didn't like it. Me and tests test Lynch. Both did. Um, Emily sort of thought the full like exploitation of the people involved, like made her uncomfortable. Just sort of the, the like people bad people just being on camera in that way. Um, I did not have that problem with it. I thought it was amazing and just very absorbing and you know, I don't, I didn't feel like it treated these people condescendingly which is what made it work for me.
Speaker 2:I didn't think that either. And I definitely, I mean as are you, but we'll just like,
Speaker 3:I'm definitely not into light mocking the working class or whatever. Yeah, I totally, I was like, these people are just interesting as like the, you know, even though it was fucked up in every possible way, the fact that they built like sort of a queer family unit in the middle of like the just total red state country where it was just like this libertarian thing of like, yeah, you can do whatever you want. This is America. Like you can go tigers, you can marry two guys, you can uh,
Speaker 2:get your Dick Pierce get as high Iger.
Speaker 3:Um, yeah. And just that everyone around Joe exotic and these other people, I don't know. I mean it kinda reminded me, I was saying of finding Neverland, the documentary because it is also like they use the big cats as a learner to get people into their world and it just works so unbelievably well. Like everybody to hold a baby tiger.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That part is like the, that was one of the most interesting takeaways is just how like the presence of these animals translated into so many different, like how just power and intrigue and like attraction.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And like I read actually that the alligators that spoiler alert, uh, get killed when Joe exotic, uh, probably looks the shed on fire himself. Um, they were all from Neverland originally. No way. Um, and the, the monkeys at the end of the documentary, there's this part really affecting part about the monkeys who have been kept in cages their whole life. And then they get to go to the great ape preserve and they hug for the first time. It's like this beautiful exotic. It's like, Oh, did I fuck up keeping these animals in cages? Um, but that great ape sanctuary is also were bubbles. The Chimp went
Speaker 2:Aw.
Speaker 3:Um, and bubbles apparently has like a beautiful life now there where he paints pictures. Isn't that nice?
Speaker 2:So nice. Yeah, that's definitely the best thing I've heard about all of the jokes audit. Like,
Speaker 3:well, I think, yeah, I think it privileges the animals. I think it's like the animals, uh, are obviously getting fucked over, but then it's like, maybe, you know, I didn't see it coming. I wasn't like, Oh, this is so on the nose. But when they get to the part where it's like Joe exotics in a cage, he doesn't like it. Nobody wants to be in a cage. Uh, including humans. You know, it makes the point very, very effectively. And it is. There's, we shouldn't have prisons either. So the noses, no prisons, those zoos,
Speaker 2:no zoos, no prisons endorsed for sure. And like how, I don't know. I um, I think that it's really nice when people are able to make things that have such a like clear, I mean the clear takeaway is that these animals have been fucked and that there's so many like fucked practices around these like animal organizations. But that I, I like that it caters to the larger story in that by doing that it also creates this really effective appeal to like the politics or whatever of it. Because if it was just like a pita documentary, not everybody would have watched it.
Speaker 3:Right. Well it also, it kind of digs into pita a little bit, which is good cause Kara cause they are not great either. You know, it does sort of say like animal rights organizations are also super fucked up. And also it's true that like there are a lot of animal rights people that like don't give a fuck about human beings. You know, like a lot of like racist animal rights. People like Bridgette Bardot is the word I always mentioned who are like, Oh, the poor animals. And then like is super racist about Muslims.
Speaker 2:Totally. It's like really annoying.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Where it's like they see more humanity in animals than in like actual humans, which is like also insane and bad.
Speaker 2:Um, what about, I was really thinking of you when comrade Brittany emerge last week.
Speaker 3:Oh my God. Comrade Britney. I was thinking of you also. Um, Brittany posted something on her Instagram and that was a repost of, Oh, look up the name of the girl Mimi June maybe. Yeah, maybe. Do I believe you're correct. Um, and it's like a, just a nice post about how we all have to be there for each other and create a new world. And then it also says and redistribute the wealth, um, and go on strikes and everybody was like, comrade Brittany. Um, and then people were like, okay, well she didn't actually write this. This artist wrote it. We miss you. And Brittany reposted it. But the fact that Brittany re posted it is amazing. Yeah. And to me that said, you know, something I've always wondered about is like, does Brittany run her own Instagram or are her handlers like doing it for her? Um, cause it's like so weird and quirky that I like do feel like it's her or sometimes you know, but other times I'm like, I don't know, are they making her like post these yoga videos? Um, but this made me think it was her, cause I was like her handlers wouldn't let her publish something that said redistribute wealth.
Speaker 2:Like hell no. They just literally wouldn't. Um, that was such insightful commentary to glean from this post that was already so amazing in itself. Um, I feel like she has, I feel like there was a moment right as her Instagram got like a lot of notable attention I think is when I got into her own hands. But I too never had a for sure answer.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean some of the things like the posting multiple photos, which she does a lot, like those also seem like, again, I was like, like is she doing that or like are her people doing that to make her seem unstable so that they can yeah. To be like this is why she needs to be under the conservatorship still. Like, you know, look, she's so like off the wall, but she also just posts like things you would think Brittany would post like a lot of beautiful pictures of flowers. Yeah. Like, like kinda nice like memes of like the moonlit sky. Just like, you know, pretty cute Brittany things. She can't help it. She's girly. Yeah. Um, but this, you know, I was seeing like also she is one of the only celebrities who had a good response to this crisis. She and Rihanna are like the only good ones cause they just like gave money and offered to give money. You know, they weren't like let me sing a song to lift your spirits. Like um, like Rihanna just gave like$5 million, which is like more than like, you know, Zuckerberg and Bezos are giving I feel like and Brittany on was just like, Hey if you're having money problems, if you need to like give your kid diaper or it's like DM me and I'll pay for it. Which is like incredible. And also just like not what most celebrities would do. Like most celebrities would like donate it to some charity and the fact that Brittany was like direct action. Like I got all this money, I can't even spend it cause I'm like trapped in my house. Like how can I help struggling moms like pay for shit during this time. That to me like that is comrade Brittany. Yeah. Like it was paired with literally like her not only posting this but taking positive action. What do you think like for people who maybe haven't been as interested in the nitty gritty of Brittany's life experience as I know we both have and many of our friends, I'm wondering when you talk about Brittany not like leaving the house and like isn't it true like Brittany's basically like she's been used to social distancing or like having to be home. Totally. She's a social distancing influencer because why is that? I think it's like she's not allowed to drive is what I have heard. Is that after the two thousands when she was like driving everywhere, um, everywhere, that's like one of the things I think in the conservatorship is she can't drive. Um, so there was like a picture not that long ago where she was driving to get fast food and people were like, I don't know the terms have changed or if she's like breaking the rule or if we just don't know actually what the terms are. And this is all speculation, which is also possible. True. Cause it seemed like it was ending, but it's hasn't so, well, they're supposed to be a court case. I mean, you know how it is. It's like they want the conservatorship to continue cause then they can keep making money off the Brittany brand. Uh, if it's over then she can just, you know, retire essentially, which we would all love for her to do. Cause I think that's what she does want to do. You know. That's what I thought the zone, that's fine cause I was like, if they want to like use her likeness to make money off of her, that is fine. As better than making her do work she doesn't want to do. Yeah. But like she's the tiger man. You know there was also that picture of her doing the MSA for your performance or everybody was like, Oh shit. The tiger in that performance that everyone forgot about cause the snake was the star. Oh yeah. His fem doc is from doc Antal. There's a picture of her with a doc Antle but you know yeah, she's the baby tiger. Like she, she just, she can't be cage. It's
Speaker 2:no, she's the ferocious one. Yeah. And she's[inaudible]
Speaker 3:the person where you're like, even if you do have this big mansion and like this palatial grounds and like you have, you know, cause we're seeing celebrities, like I'll go up against the limits of that. It's like they have these huge houses and you can see that in their videos, but they're also bored just like everybody else. They're like feel trapped and confined even with all that space. Um, but yeah, Brittany has so much experience with that.
Speaker 2:She makes the best of it. No wonder she likes working out so much. I know she really does make the best of it. And I mean her rebelling, I mean I feel like she's been having her own personal labor rebellion. So that also fits into the comrades. Brittany, she's like Elvis Presley
Speaker 3:see in so many ways and like, you know, also in that she like, yeah, she's like a working class southerner and they're, you know, are a few directions that can lead you in. And one of them is to be like a recessed bad person, you know? But also like Elvis and Brittany, it seems like they just like, they never forget that they were working class, you know, and they don't become racist because of it. They're just like sympathetic to anyone. Um,
Speaker 2:right. Also I think they're famous enough to feel confident to do that. Like yeah. Unfortunately people are just like so desperate to attain everything, you know?
Speaker 3:Yeah. And they both were like trapped in this prison of their own fame at a certain point where you're like too famous to live your normal life. Cause Britney's tragedy is like, she does just want to go to the coffee bean and target and stuff. Like any other Valley girl,
Speaker 2:any other Calabasas slash Tarzana mother. Yeah. She's
Speaker 3:such a, she's such a West Valley mom. She just wants to go to soccer practice but she can't even do those like normal person things. And I don't, you know, it seems like her, she doesn't get to see her sons very much. It seems like Kevin has most of the custody. That's really weird to me. Yeah. And then there was a thing where one of her kids like posted at like an Instagram live or something where they were being, uh, a lot like what you would think a little Kevin Federline would be like just using a lot of gay slurs and saying something about like, you know, my mom makes a lot of money or it was like, it was a, it was sad was really sad cause I was like, Oh like Brittany's kids.
Speaker 2:Well the West Valley is very Kevin Federline in general. Like that might've happened
Speaker 3:even if he wasn't their father. No, totally. Like I was more disappointed that Brittany's kids would use gay slurs cause I was like that's not fair. Yeah. I was like teenage boys still doing that. I thought maybe we had like moved into a slightly better era, but it just felt so like what preteen boys were like when I was a preteen and I was like, Oh no. Yeah. And then I was like, Kevin Federline must just like use it at home. Cause that's where they would probably pick it up or at school, who knows? Probably using a lot of words that helped them. It just made me be like, how does he talk about Brittany to his kids? If they're like, Oh mom, you know, if that's how they think of her as like the moneymaker, like not just made me sad.
Speaker 2:That is so sad because she's just such a sweet soul. I wanted to applaud you for, um, I don't know if it's a collaborative playlist, but I really loved seeing unusual you on one of your latest playlists.
Speaker 3:It is a collaborative playlist. We do mixes every month for night call and the theme of this month that we're doing in April is plastic surgery. So we're reading this manga that's really good, called Helter Skelter that's about like this model who gets all this plastic surgery to become perfect and then it starts like basically rotting away. It's like a really good comic. Wow. That was like the theme of the mix, sort of, um, that were like, just sort of like Erie, Erie, uncanny pop music.
Speaker 2:I feel like, um, Brittany obviously blackout in 2007 is like her quintessential album in a way. Um, or at least like the artistic, like when we applaud, but I really, really love circus as well.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, me too. I've been listening to a lot of Brittany, um, during this hard time. Yeah. It provides comfort.[inaudible]
Speaker 2:phonography baby. That's what was getting me up today to do this, this really hard task.
Speaker 3:I think also just like after going to the zone, I was like, Brittany has like so many hits and you know, and besides just comparing her to any pop star now it's like, I don't think a pop star will ever achieve that level of sort of like monoculture ever again. You know, like, no, everybody I know is excited about Dua Lipa but like does your average person know who do a Lipa is at this point? Like probably not in the way that like everybody knew who Brittany was. Even if you didn't listen to her, you like, you're experiencing her. Yeah. Well there's two. The commercial
Speaker 2:or TRL or MTV or the radio.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I feel like Rihanna is the last pop star who's, you know, and she's not just a pop star, but like Rihanna totally has that level of celebrity where she's like a one name Madonna.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Beyond say yeah, I see about it. Um, I have a lot of cousins that I grew up with in LA and one of them is like, um, Kayla shouts out, I'm sure you'll listen. Uh, she's like 21. Yeah, 2122 and so, and I'm 28 so, um, it's interesting like for her, I remember Rihanna coming up, like I already felt like I was old but I was probably like sixth grade or something. But like you're like she grew up with Rianna like her whole like would, she was like really tiny. We would be singing unfaithful together at Disneyland. Like she's just had her as a one name person her whole life where like,
Speaker 3:and having that pop star who like, you know, those eras means so much to you when you're that age.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Cause like even for Beyonce I felt like I was, cause my first concert was Destiny's child and it was actually at the um, what is that place called? It's like a desert town. Um, and it was at like a basically the fair like the end of summer kind of fair. Not LA County. Antelope Valley fair. Funny. Isn't that so funny? Cause it's so like humble. It makes me feel like I witnessed the movie Selena being filmed or something was sort of you basically did. Yeah. Cause like I only bring it up because I didn't, why wasn't introduced to Beyonce as a one word name? You know, I kind of grew up with her still. Whereas my younger cousin again like she would listen to the Destiny's child but it was already like Beyonce era.
Speaker 3:Beyonce of Destiny's child of the antelope Valley fair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. But it's easier to dance. That makes sense.
Speaker 3:Good star two if you did really come up on like the state fair and mall circuit, the way that Beyonce and Brittany both did cause it's all the same. Really perform. Yeah. And it's like the same stuff over and over again. The stage just keeps getting bigger.
Speaker 2:Yeah. What about these people who go from like their bedroom and then they're like, I mean, you know, it's just different, like the way that the like trajectory,
Speaker 3:no, totally, you're right. Cause like Billie Eilish didn't have any kind of an interstitial time period. She didn't do any kind of like, like slow build, which I also feel like isn't probably healthy for like any musician, you know? And I feel like that's become more of an internet thing. Like the same thing with Lord. It's like when they take people from like zero to a thousand like that, I'm sort of like, well how are those people gonna feel when there's like a drop, you know? Like how did those people feel when like all the attention isn't on them. All of a sudden after they've been told that like they're the most special person ever. You know,
Speaker 2:that's when they're going to be like, they're realized you're going to need to become craftsmen.
Speaker 3:Or like just songwriters if you're[inaudible] I think is like, you know, not just the idol, provide the, like the backup. Cause I just think it's like it wears on you too. Like how long can a person to stadium tours without sort of like losing their mind, you know,
Speaker 2:or like, I mean I'm not saying like I hate these people but just like we've been rocking with Katy Perry and Gaga for so long now and like they both still feel extremely thirsty for this kind of attention. And it's,
Speaker 3:well I also, I feel bad for them too in a way. Cause it is like what do you do when then it like levels off in your thirties if you're like a pop star who like got famous in your 20s and you're like, you know, you either have to go like the Ray of light route. Yeah. Or you have to be like an actual songwriter if you're just like the vessel, you know? I mean I think Katy Perry is a songwriter, so I feel like she's okay and lady Gaga too probably. But it does also seem like they're both people that don't just want to be in the background like
Speaker 2:no, they're just like debuting these like really extreme but also the opposite of extreme looks out.
Speaker 3:It's a funny, okay, so like you watch Vanderpump rules obviously, you know it's like you know how Stasi and Katie and them are like all trying to be like now we're homemakers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have a new identity.
Speaker 3:That's what Katy Perry is going for. She's like, now I'm like here's, here's my slow transition back into Christian music. Probably like wedding songs and like pregnancy, adult contemporary. And then Gaga is like Sheena Gaga. I'm still young. I'm a look how hard I can fucking dance. Remember how much you liked me in a star is born like, yeah. It also feels really desperate but like different way. But I also completely understand cause like what are you supposed to do? You know like male musicians I feel like get to just be like, Oh no, they're in their thirties and they're like a mature artists. But like with pop stars it's like they really do get pushed off the cliff sometimes. You know, which is why Brittany is so beloved. Cause we'd have to save her from being pushed off the cliff.
Speaker 2:Please. We'll all bow down as much as we need to make that happen.
Speaker 3:I thought it was funny some people were being shady about Gaga cause they were like she canceled, she like is reformulating her album now cause I think the first single was kind of a flop. Stupid love. So she's like back in the lab with Chromatica she's like Oh I'm going to delay the the album release cause it's not the right time. And everybody was like, Oh well meanwhile like do a leap as leaking her album early cause it leaked. Like she's putting it out early. Like clearly there is like a thirst for pop music in this period that just like it wasn't what people wanted. But then I'm also like is it just like Julie is 22 and she's like the new thing in Gaga is like on album five or six or whatever.
Speaker 2:Right. And we're just like not, yeah, I think, I don't know. I feel like, I dunno, I haven't listened to the new Dua Lipa album. Um,
Speaker 3:it's really good. You should listen to it. You'll like it a lot
Speaker 2:like it cause her songs are just like that pop, you know that vibe we all want,
Speaker 3:it's very like two thousands throwback in the sense that it's like just pure Euro pop. It's like a Kylie Minogue album. It's like not EDM at all or dubstep or anything. It's like just moving away from that back to like
Speaker 2:something you can wear chiffon and dance. So
Speaker 3:totally. Um, and it's very good. It's very like springy. It is like, but it is interesting cause you're like, does that just happen when you're like starting out that you are more in tune with whatever the new thing are and then when you're like, whenever the new thing are, whatever the new thing is and then when you're on like album whatever, you're like just overthinking it so much. It's like what's going to be popular? What are people gonna like[inaudible]
Speaker 2:right. And you're just so worried about that youth. Like you're just feeling like pressure that like you're alienated from that youth spirit. Even if you might[inaudible] like they could possibly not even be, but they just make choices that are cause they're so worried about at all.
Speaker 3:Right. And like Madonna did an amazing job up to like just a certain point. Like she went way further than anyone else did and it got, obviously I think Rihanna will just have a long career for the same reason. But now Madonna is like in this very like desperate, you know, trying to be on the pulse but like so insulated from what's cool that like, cause like my boyfriend's always saying like if Madonna just made like a Detroit techno album and she was like, I'm not from New York, I'm from Michigan, you know? And just like worked with like Detroit legends or something. Just like there are things she could do still that would make good music. That's just like, I just feel like she doesn't have anyone around her that doesn't say yes to her. You know, she's been so famous for so long and so if someone's like make a Diplo album, she's like, okay. Yeah, but like it's not just that she's like of a certain age and like wants to be hot and wants to be, you know, cool. Still it's that she's just, she gives off this desperate energy cause I was like, yeah, isn't like that. I was like, Oh Grace Jones like Grace Jones opposite a thirsty opposite. Right. Nobody ever would be like, Oh Grace Jones is like too old to be hot. Cause she's like so fucking hot. And she, you know, but she doesn't give off that that neediness. She doesn't, yeah, she just seems self self contained and self sufficient, which is like what you really want in a female pop star. Although with Brittany, it's the vulnerability that makes her so lovable. But the sexual confidence is authentically Brittany[inaudible] but like she's so hot and she has physical, she has like body confidence that comes from a place of athleticism, which is like what makes it so attractive and that like down homeness is still her aura is, I'm so grounded her Oris Louisiana. Yes. I love it too. Even like eyeliner that everyone's so mean about where they are. Like why does she do the raccoon eyes? I'm like, because she's a Southern woman. Yeah. Like Ooh look, she looks at me, she's on the Bravo South. Shows free and like if you look at pictures of her mom wouldn't, you know with young baby Brittany, it's like her mom did the raccoon. I always, so I'm just like, it's just what she thinks like an adult woman does. You know I still have a life dream of seeing Brittany at the commons in Calabasas. Like in the old days I thought it was going to be at like Coldstone Creamery, but now I think it's going to be at like SunLife organics either. It was, there was one time when she was just drying when she was still driving, when she went to the Betsy Johnson store and fashion square and it was like an us weekly, that store. Right. It was like Brittany Spears took over the Betsy Johnson store in fashion square and try it on everything in the store. And I was like, Oh my God, what if I'd been there? Literally you're like, that was right down the freaking corner from class again. I could, it was like I will show bending that Betsy Johnson store a million times and never bought anything cause I can't afford it. But Brittany, Brittany can. I felt that way about like, I probably couldn't have afforded it, but my parents are like not smart spender. So I probably could have got something from there, but there probably wasn't a thing that was like sized appropriately. But I still like needed to go in every time to just experience the patterns. No, totally. Do you think fashion squares the most iconic mall in LA or at least in the battery? I mean, I mean now it is not that the gallery is no longer with us. I write, um, the Sherman Oaks gallery, obviously the Glendale gallery. Yeah. We still have, I will say I read one of things I read about Eve Babitz said that she loved to go to the Glendale Galleria to clear her mind. I was so relatable.
Speaker 2:Insanely relatable. That's so funny. Um, I wish that, well, I'll share another life dream of mine. I'm have very humble goals is to have an office above like at the Sherman Oaks Galleria that still exists as like not a proper mall, but the ArcLight and stuff, there's so many office buildings there have like production offices there. And I'm like, what if the four twenties Hallett film production office or is that the extreme Alex gallery? I'll be so happy.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, I haven't even better idea. You should take the old vivid building.
Speaker 2:Oh, in studio city. Yeah. Every time we pass my boyfriend's like I missed vivid building.
Speaker 3:I see it. I'm like, it doesn't say vivid anymore, but it's still the vivid building.
Speaker 2:Right. I used to work. Um, I worked for like a documentary, um, that was made like in the production office, like maybe five storefronts down or something. And I would just like go walk by, go by. We'd go smoke in front of the vivid building and I feel like I interviewed the creator of vivid a couple times and like he was never wanting, I always was wanting to be like more Pally about but just about the info, you know, I wanted to like Goss it more and he was always kind of being like, it was a long time ago now, you know,
Speaker 3:nineties porn people. They are, they are all like that. They're like, it was, they get a little like wistful cause they're just like, it was an amazing time and now it's gone.
Speaker 2:It was another era, babe. Yeah. That's the part about Joe exotic too that I wanted to mention is that, um, like it kind of made me think about what I love about being a journalist, which is just the wide range of experts.
Speaker 3:You and I both, I feel like it's like, like we love talking to somebody who knows everything about something
Speaker 2:and that doesn't mean that they know everything about everything. And it's like, because I've had that experience before where like, I'll have a really, really compelling and a really, really specific interview with someone and then we'll like connect on social media or they'll write, you know, some, somehow I'm like involved in their life beyond that combo. And um, then like I'll see something where I'm like, Oh, that's random, that doctor is a Republican or not to be so securitizing too. But you know, just like, or, or worse honestly, like, or seeing like some, like I've did a story about like fathers, um, from the eighties and nineties living with HIV who at the time of their diagnosis thought that they weren't going to ever experience their kid's life. And then like, they've experienced it and it's really amazing. But then like when I see what that guy who's like a total weirdo and specific person with a complicated ass life, when I see what they're just like posting on their own, I'm like Ooh yeah. Like
Speaker 3:no totally. I mean that also happens where you're like, Oh am I like shaping this person to seem like the person that I know like we want them to seem like cause that's a story we'll do. And definitely like I've thought about this, you know, cause like I've definitely interviewed some people who then got canceled later, you know, where you were like Ooh like am I naive cause I like didn't pick up on any dark energy when I interviewed this person cause they were being nice to me and sucking up cause I'm a journalist,
Speaker 2:right? I mean yeah like or even I'm just being honest because whatever, like I when I interviewed Jeff Goldbloom at the beginning of last one, did I do it? I guess it was over the summer like summer 2019 sometime. Like I just was assigned the story for like a cult VIP feature, which is just means like we're writing about someone that's like iconic, you know, it's not necessarily of this era, it's somewhat or of all the areas, whatever. And like, I don't know, I knew that some people are like basically what I knew then is still what exists, which is like one day people are gonna come out about Jeff Goldbloom. Right. But like that day hadn't come, you know, like I didn't
Speaker 3:also think that that is not necessarily true about Jeff Goldbloom. I'm just going to say, I also interviewed Jeff Goldbloom and I think a lot of people have interviewed him. I think there's a difference, um, which is that he's just really flirtatious and we are in an era now where people are like, Oh, like do we police flirting? But that's like, but that's also like, I don't think anyone is trying to police flirting. Like that's what people who are like mad about cancel culture always say, they're like, Oh, what we can't flirt anymore. And it's like, no, of course like people are gonna flirt and like, you know, flirt at work still anyway. Um, it's just like, I think it depends on like whether you're vibing with it. Like I personally was like, I'm a journalist, I'm here to do the Jeff Goldbloom interview. Everybody knows what you get with that is that he's like a flirty person. He's going to flirt with you because he's an actor. But you also know that he's like doing it as a performance cause you're a journalist.
Speaker 2:Right. And I going into it being like, I'm a journalist who is a actor who's a flirt. Like it's like going to have fun. You know, everyone's consenting. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like, cool. And also like, I don't know, I was accidentally an hour late to interview him also because I have, it was like daylight savings time or something. And then he was like, I was so worried he was going to be like a Dick, you know, and be like, yeah, for sure. And he was just very nice and friendly about it. Um, and yeah, and we ended up talking about, cause it was like right after the shooting in Pittsburgh and he's, he's like a Jew from Pittsburgh and we ended up talking about that. I mean he definitely like, you know, I'm not like I, that's the thing with any celebrity though is you're just like, I don't really know this person. I know them as a public figure and I'm like basing my understanding of how to interact with them on that. But like they might be totally different in their private life, but that's like not your job. It's not, you're not being an investigative journalist in that case to like dig up dirt. But I do think just to bring it back to Scott Peterson, it's like somebody is cheating on their wife doesn't make them a murderer. Just because somebody is like a flirtatious person doesn't make them a sexual assaulter. You know, not every womanizer is like an actual rapist. Some people are just womanizers and like maybe that's like can be emotionally abusive. But again, I'm like, I just feel like Jeff Goldbloom dated a bunch of like hotties and now he's like married to an aerialist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going to tell you my friend from high school, it could Trina Kemp, she is a performer. Like she'll do a lot of stage shows like she's an actor and does comedy but is also like very good at dancing and stage work like that. Like not Ariel ism per se, but different kinds of troops like that. And um, she told me that she went on tour with his girl, with his wife before they were together and that then like a Cirque de Solei tour. And then that the two met that she met Jeff Goldbloom wa Equinox on sunset. And I just thought that was such a funny,
Speaker 3:it's funny. Totally imperfect. And yeah, he's also just like a puritanism in our culture, especially of like, you know, married people shouldn't flirt, which is like totally ridiculous. Cause like of course married people can flirt, you know, again, it doesn't mean you're going to like follow through. It's just like, like a lot of interaction and friendship is like flirtatious and it would be weird if people were like, I'm going to make sure I never say anything funny or cute, you know?
Speaker 2:Well people who are like that are miserable. I mean hopefully
Speaker 3:it's just not sustainable. Like to be able to really like qualify, distinguish like what's flirting versus not is pretty hard to do. I think it's also hard for like, you know, let's, let's say these are like insoles or whatever, who are mad about this, who are like, well it doesn't work like that for me. I mean that's the thing too is it's like, again it has to be consensual. Like if you're hitting on somebody or flirting with them and they're not, they're not picking it up or they're actively like, you know, stonewalling you, you have to like know how to pick up on that vibe and change directions, you know, like, well I can't take, yeah, like some people are just 30 with everybody, especially actors and famous people are all like that. Which that part is like so creepy though sometimes. I know for sure. Cause you're also be in a way that I'm fearful for safety. It's just like a weird vibe. It's a weird, well cause you're doing like this weird dance. It's like interviewing a celebrity is such a specific thing that we both do and it's like you have to, you know, it's like a, it's like a blind date, you know, and you've researched before and just like, yeah. And it's like a F like a weird first date with somebody where you're like, I know all this stuff about them but what will they be like in real life? You know? And like your classic celebrity profile is just sort of like, isn't this person great? They're my new best friend. Wouldn't you love for them to be your new best friend?
Speaker 2:They're literally it right now. They're the moment like it just always about how like this is their time.
Speaker 3:And so yeah, like doing a good job with that is, is its own skill. But yeah, definitely. I often am like, what are the ethics of like, you know, if this person turns out to be a bad person, like am I in some way culpable for making them seem like you're cool best friend?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:But I also think like, you can't know going in.
Speaker 2:What did it feel like? Um, like when you were reading the different, um, pieces by Eve Babitz that are included in, I used to be charming and they're from Esquire and Playboy and all these different magazines and some of them are like, I love her Nicholas cage profile. Um, but like when you read that generation of like specifically her, but like magazine writing from a different generation and
Speaker 3:celebrity profiling, like does it feel different than what we get to do today? I mean, in some ways, like on the one hand I'm like, Oh my God, there were so many magazines. Right? That's the real thing. And I'm just like, Oh, I didn't even know. Like, you know, she wrote so much for outlets, you know, some of the stuff that she did like for for money or I'm just like, Oh yeah, like I do stuff like that. Yeah. Where it's like you a weird one off magazine but like you're trying to find whatever respondent interesting about that for you. Like I just wrote something for like a cruise ship magazine. Funny. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Cool. Yeah. I was like sure it goes. Yeah, like there's room for it or it makes everything you read from her even though there's so many different publications. It all makes sense for like her voice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I saw like something that she finds really interesting and she makes you interested in it too, which is like the greatness of her. I do think the main thing that has changed, and I think this is just also specific to her is like the, the access that she got and that some of those writers got, you know, where you could write about things more critically. Like, like in the godfather piece, you know, she's very like playfully critical of Coppola as a person and of Zoetrope as a company in a way that's like very arch but also insider re, you know, like she, she likes it and she's on the, she's going to all the parties and hanging out. But she's also like, you know, a little suspicious of people building somebody up to be the great man in the way that they are with Francis Coppola at that time. You know, and like the movies are, are good, but they come together sort of haphazardly and then everyone like declares that it was this masterpiece that was like, you know, sent from God. Yeah. Like showing the seams and talking about like, I love the part where she talks about going to the party for the great Gatsby and being like, the movie was like a bomb, but the party was amazing and this is really good. Cause that's also just, yeah, just the idea that like if you spend the most money on something, it'll be the best is very great. Gatsby, the movie and also the book, you know? So, yeah, I think she does deconstruct sort of the notion of celebrity in a way that is super, super well done. But I don't know,
Speaker 2:she also is just so self assured that when she shows up for an interview, like, I don't know, I sometimes think that this is not like a blanket statement because there's so many, so many amazing journalists and entertainment journalists. But like there is something about the culture of journalism of entertainment journalism today. I think we're like, the expectation is that you're kind of going to be a fan girl from the beginning or like totally exalting and worshiping these people. Right, right. And
Speaker 3:that's like, that's also because celebrities now are just, you know, and I think this was always true. There was always an issue of access of like if you write something critical about somebody, like they'll pull access, you know, which is like what magazines really care about. So I think the fact that she was doing the godfather thing for like a Zoetrope magazine, it was like on the budget of the thing she was writing about and they were all friends enough with her to be like, yeah, do whatever you want. So I don't think it like isn't possible. I just think you would need, you would need somebody with balls to publish it, which I don't know that exactly.
Speaker 2:Maybe one day in the new world of like when you sat down to write your introduction, was that like the culmination of a lot of like research and thinking or wondering or, um, like definitely a lot of things.
Speaker 3:I feel like I'm one of those people who just like write something in my head for like days, you know, and then like puts, puts it on the page at the end. But I'm definitely like the time that I think of as procrastinating is often actually like, um, I am like, I am working on it in my head. I'm just also like driving around and you know, look, looking at Twitter in between or whatever. Um, I was definitely like intimidated to do it, you know, just because I'm such a fan and I didn't want to do it in a way that was like just aping her, you know? Cause when I read her for the first time, I was like, Oh, where was this person my whole life? But also sort of like, Oh, if I had discovered her earlier, I would have just imitated her and in a way, good. I didn't, cause I would've just been like, someone did the thing that I wanted to do already. So like now I don't have to do it, but I wrote one that, um, I wrote like a first draft that I ended up like discarding and then I wrote it again. Um, yeah. And just, uh, I don't know. I like the way it turned out and thank you. But yeah, I, you know, as a, as an Angeleno obviously I just feel like she writes about LA so well and in the same way that like Jonathan gold does, where it's just like the perspective of Anita of not somebody coming at it from, you know, what is this weird fucked up place? You know, that I a new Yorker I'm discovering but just like no, it's a real city. It's full of immigrants. It's not just all rich white people in mansions. But there's also that too, you know,
Speaker 2:not all about your own aspiration and how it reflects back to you based on its fulfillment or not.
Speaker 3:Right. Totally. Cause they call the LA books are written by like East coast transplants who came here to like, you know, try and make it big and you know, drank themselves to death. So that is the, the still, even the perspective you see on LA is like, it was this terrible place and everyone's stupid and superficial. But there's also like a freedom in that, that I think a lot of West coast artists have, which is like, there aren't these traditions that you're supposed to be working, so you can just start from your own place that's completely yours and doesn't have to do with that. And I think Eve Babitz is like so good at that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because she's like, um, yeah. It's amazing to be like when you don't quite fit in, you get to do your own thing. Um,
Speaker 3:yeah. And one thing I read was that she sort of wrote her first book, Eve's Hollywood in response to choose friends with Joan Didion and Joan Didion had put out the white album. Um, and that you've had, it's like, well, like, this is a view of Los Angeles, but also it's not all doom and gloom and, you know, disaster doomsday stuff paid fuck boy liquor. She also, in one of the books they like get her to talk in, um, Hollywood's Eve, the bio by Lillian Malek. They, they at one point Lily's like gets her to talk a little shit about Joan Didion where she's like, Oh well Joan Didion was a speed freak. Yeah. Which totally tracks, you know, and also she says something, which I also say, which is like, well Joe and Judy Ann's from Sacramento. Like she's not she's lady bird. Yeah, she is lady bird. Totally. And like being from Sacramento too, it's like it's just, it's still California, but it is different from Los Angeles. Like she came from a very, she came from, I sort of like Republican pioneer up bringing and that's like the perspective that that she brought to the 60s obviously, you know, was sort of a cynical, a cynicism and Eve Babish just approaches it from a completely different place, which is like sort of a, an optimism tempered by expectation, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I feel like, um, like you already know. I mean it's like, what am I interested in? It's like similar to you or it's like, thank God I didn't read Eve Babitz as like a high school or two because it would just have been like just too much. I don't know, I would've been like too, like overwhelmed I think by the linemen. Thrawled yeah. Um, but I do feel like something else that I think a lot of like Angelina think about. Um, and especially like, you know, I live in the house, I'm in the house. My, um, you know, my family has lived in, in the Valley since like 1955 or something. So it's just like, I'm really interested in like, history and memory of different places here and like so much of the time public art and the preservation of like certain history in Las diminished and like reading Eve is always this portal into these like places or storefronts or restaurants or hotels that a lot of them don't exist. But like totally her.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It recreates this landscape of this LA that doesn't exist anymore, you know, but it's also sort of timeless about the way she writes out the landscape. It's like, Oh yeah, there's like these little ticky tack neighborhoods and then there's like these big stupid developments by Marvista. Yeah. Weird there. Yeah. Like it still feels very, very timely. Definitely. Um, did you ever idolize Joan Didion? No, I didn't. Like, I like Joan Didion. I really respect Joan Didion but I think I also just very quickly caught on that there were like only two female authors that like men respect and that they are Joan Didion and Susan Sontag. You know, where they're like, okay I got one, I'm good. And just that like any good female writer gets compared to Joan Didion cause you're like, you can compare female writers. Right. And it's like you can compare female writers to male writers also, you know? Right. Yeah. It's just like she, she's good at what she does. Like Eve says, it's like I, you know, she's good at what she does, but it does also like get me, get me up in arms sometimes about just sort of the portrayal of LA is like a dead rotting paradise, you know? Which again, it also is, it's not, not that, but you know, Eve is more like, you know, Eve comes from such a different world than Joan Didion. She's like the child of like Bohemian leftists in Hollywood. And that just to me, is that more of a listen to this? Yeah. Yeah. Like I, I grew, grew up in Hollywood for like the first five years of my life before we moved to the Valley. And I definitely have that same thing of just like, okay, well like, you know, Hollywood is a, it's like a real place in addition to like a cultural idea and it's like an interesting real place and an interesting cultural idea and I love it. But yeah. And then I moved to North Hollywood, which is like nice abstract, not anywhere near Hollywood, just using the name but also shared territory with Susan Sontag. True. Yeah, that's right. And I think Marilyn Monroe lived in North Hollywood. Yeah. But to North Hollywood high think. Yeah. Right. So like Valley girl intelligence has always been great and like will Susan Sontag in D C and too, it's like you could sense that they were trying to like become a New York writer. You know, they wanted to become part of the East coast establishment and they did, they were super successful at that. But like Eve Babitz was just like doing her own thing. She could give a fuck about the East coast establishment. She like dabbles in it but get stressed out by it. And like that is totally been my experience. You know, I was just like, I try and sometimes and then I'm always like, Oh this is so like uptight. I can't handle it. Like nobody gives a fuck about me here. Like
Speaker 2:it makes me feel so suburban. I it makes me feel so like just a cowgirl. Um, I'm not like, I'm not someone who really, like I love a snack but I'm not someone who really wants to like eat while I read. But something about Eve Babitz books just like, I think it's a compliment to her writing that it makes me feel like you want to like curl up with like a morsel and like just like the PR like prioritization of like pleasure and it's just like orgasm and see's candy and pop.
Speaker 3:It's also what differentiates, I mean that is my suspicion is like the men read Joan Didion and Susan Sontag and considered them intellectual peers. Cause like they don't write about female pleasure really in the same, I mean maybe Sontag a little bit, but like a lot of displeasure. Yeah. They like Eve is just so focused on female pleasure and also, yeah, just because she's so freed from the expectation of being a serious writer. She can write about like having big[inaudible]
Speaker 2:boobs. That's a good essay. I like it.
Speaker 3:It's a great essay. And there's a great Nora Afro an essay that I don't know if they were in conversation with each other. I think I just assumed they were because Nora Ephron wrote one that was like I, I have small boobs and it's like the Nora Ephron essay was really funny cause it's like self-deprecating in the opposite way where she was like, I was the only secretary that John Kennedy never hit on.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 3:Say she's like, I suspect that if I had, if I had breasts, like my whole life would be different. Yeah. So I just love both of those essays cause I do think that is just like the grass is always greener on the other side, you know, and Eve sort of like no, having big boobs is amazing
Speaker 2:but it's like there's a downside to being sexualized all the time. Right. Like I was thinking about how okay so like no one's just about how we all like treat ourselves in response to like what we are or have or perceive to have. Like and just thinking about people who like especially women, young women with all ages, especially like young women with like huge boobs are like very voluptuous. Those are a lot of the time. Those are who you see the most and like streetwear and boxy clothes cause they, they can't take it. Right. That's what I like about it.
Speaker 3:Eilish is that she's like that she's like I didn't want anyone to see my body. So like I wore big clothes, which I think is like a super common thing for girls with like a lot of body types be, especially girls who like developed early. But there is like this construction set up for your spa. We'll still like where people are just like envious of each other for for things and it doesn't have to be like that. I was definitely did you, did you develop early?
Speaker 2:I mean for me I felt like always having just like a larger body that I was more of like I had to hide my body because that was all that there was. But then it was more like my response was the exact opposite too. I think the kind of imagery I was drawing, which is like I'm not going to be sexualized enough so let me make sure that I'm showing off everything I can to like stay in the mix.
Speaker 3:[inaudible]. Yeah, I feel like I, I was like super kid looking, you know, I was like, I didn't, I didn't develop until late even though I like got my period, I was still just like super flat chested all through high school and I was super jealous of girls who had big boobs. And then like later I got like a little extra puberty at the end and I got more boobs and then I was like, Oh, now I understand like why this would also be stressful. It's just I had, it was just all things I had never thought about. You know, where I was like, Oh, it would be nice to get that attention. And then it's like, Oh no. If you get attention for like your body, it's like not for you in the same way. It's different and you've had freight and you can't turn it off. Um, and Eve Babitz is just like writes about that in a way that's really interesting where she's like, yeah, she writes about like you want the attention, but also like you recognize that it makes people write you off as like a party girl. Totally. It makes men do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Cause they're stupid. The women do. I mean I feel like through the lot of my sexiest friends is how, which is like obviously subjective, but just saying like uh, uh, sex workers and people who are just like stylistically like serving tons of body and tons of sex. Like the response from women that I've received while with them, you know, is like so insane too.
Speaker 3:That's true. I think people, there is just like a Puritan thing in America that does just make people like uncomfortable about sex. You know, even in Los Angeles where I think it's probably the most normalized of anywhere in America.
Speaker 2:Right. Listen, Miami, I feel like we're no wonder I love it there so much.
Speaker 3:So this is before, but I think Florida is, California is California.
Speaker 2:Oh my God. It's so real.
Speaker 3:Like I love Florida and I just feel like it's the place that we are all like that's where everyone's like in a bikini, the time, the way that people think we are here
Speaker 2:like w with like with some coconut oil and orange blossom.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just like pleasure, like sensual pleasure. The same thing where people are like, Oh well if a place is so centrally pleasurable it can't also be real art, you know, or real. It's like no, it's both. It's both. And,
Speaker 2:and it's actually, if we're going to still be hierarchical it's actually smarter because it's all of it. You know what I mean? It can be embodied and like I hate socialism. That's like stripped from your body or like alienated. And I feel like sometimes that like ma like uppers and like rail thin upper writing, it's just like it feels to know totally it feels rolled cause your button pulled babe.
Speaker 3:And it's interesting cause like Eve, you know I think is also portraying herself in her writing as sort of like an idealized hot version of herself that exists, you know, is the way that writers have their own sort of personas that you work into your writing. And you know, some of the stuff I've read from like other men talking about her in the period, like people would like call her fat and be like totally, you know, and weird looking. And just to hear men be like, just sort of just dismissive of her. I read a book by a guy that art galleries that was like the guy that she was dating when she did the same test with Duchamp. Um, and she was trying to get back at, cause he was her boyfriend and he was married so she was like trying to like show him up and he had a book, like an autobiography and I like looked her up in the back and there's literally like one mention of her in passing where he was like my girlfriend at the time that you've bought it. It's like did this thing where I was just like right. Cause that's what she w yeah. I was like, Oh if you're like writing, you're writing to just like establish that you exist, you know, to be like all these men are creating these narratives of the counterculture and you're also creating just the totally just all these iconic things, but like not ever being egotistical about it. You know, like she fucking did the Buffalo Springfield cover collage.
Speaker 2:Right. I feel like I relate to this idea of like she's never quite sure if she has a career or not even though she's always doing chill things but happy to be doing
Speaker 3:sure. That is the freelance lifestyle to a T
Speaker 2:I liked it. I listened to a, I think your summer has pod and you're like, you know this is kind of my lifestyle, you know, cause I'm a freelancer and maybe you work from home or work in your own community and like you're used to like having to like kind of live your day based on your own choices and like scheduling and all that or lack thereof and like make our own schedules and wear soft pants literally by like how you say I didn't necessarily want everyone else to like how you were like I kind of was down to go do a job. I love
Speaker 3:no I've been thinking about that a lot cause I was like yeah like my fantasy was not to like drag everyone down to my level. I do feel like from this place I can offer some help maybe of like what to do when you have to make your own schedule and we're soft pants all the time.
Speaker 2:Right. You got to wash him, get all I'm wearing tie. Nice puff pants right now. They're not, they're not yoga kick at all. They're more festival. I would say they're a pajama set from forever 21, two weeks, months ones. And the top is a shirt that says spring vibes. Yes. You're on trends spring. Maybe it's my spring break. Okay. I know I talked to you for so long, but can I just ask you a couple questions kind of quickly and then we'll wrap up for sure. Can you tell me quickly about your experience, uh, like the literal scene setting of you interviewing mana Del Ray?
Speaker 3:Oh, sure. Um, I tweeted that I wanted to interview a lot until, right. I was like putting it into the universe that I want to interview a lot of tell right this year. And Craig marks from the LA times wrote me an email and was like, Hey, we're supposed to interview a lot of Delray, do you want to do it? And I was like, Oh my God. Um, but then it was sorta like, I wasn't sure if it was going to happen. You know, like when you're trying to schedule an interview and it's just kinda like, you know, you're like waiting for the time and end date and you're the whole time you're like, I shouldn't even tell people it's happening. Case doesn't happen. But yeah, it was, it was in Laurel Canyon at a house they had rented I think for the photo shoot. Um, that was like an amazing, a frame cabin and it was, it was great. I was super nervous. Um, for all the reasons we talked about above about, you know, especially interviewing somebody whose work you really admire, where you're like worse. Yeah, yeah. You're like, what if we don't get a loan? Right. But yeah, I like loved her. She was really funny and cool and sweet. My friend Megan Garvey had interviewed her and she had been like, she's really sweet. It's like, you know that the thing I would say to describe her and I was like, that is exactly right. Sort of like Brittany in that way where you're just like, there's like a core sweetness to this person that makes you love them. Yeah. And sort of that Maryland thing too. You're just like, I love you. I want to take care of you. Yeah. She offered me some kombucha. There were like some hot guys playing music on the porch when I got there. This is the like sixties music journalism experience. And then after that I was kind of like, you know, cause music journalism. I've, I've sort of been doing it on and off, but like less recently and I just very like satisfying after that I was like, I can retire from music journalist. So
Speaker 2:yeah. You're like, you know what, I can RA.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I told her to listen to night call at the end. Um, and she was really it. Yeah, she was nice like before and after we started talking to, you know, she wasn't like, she didn't have, she just seemed like a real, she's like a real person, you know.
Speaker 2:Oh, when you get the, it's always the best. I feel like Norman fucking Rockwell. I mean, I, I already listened to it obviously when it came out, but, um, since being in my house, her three weeks, I've listened to it more than ever.
Speaker 3:Every one, every girl I know in quarantine just been listening to Lada Lada
Speaker 2:both sides of the spectrum. One, I need to go down when I need to get up. Um, and so I know that, um, we spoke a little bit in the past about, uh, no Olympic stuff, but as we wrap up here, I don't want to like not talk about something that I think is super interesting, which is like your own, um, kind of organizing and amplification of, uh, critiques and information about the Olympics.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I will say like I started getting into organizing, like my boyfriend started getting into it a little bit earlier than me and then he kind of brought me in. It was like right after I got laid off from MTV, you know, it was like, I felt very lost. I was like, what am I doing with my life? Like maybe music journalism isn't like a profession necessarily that I want, you know, like I want to write film and TV. Like, why am I not just doing that? Um, but I was feeling very lost and getting into organizing provided just like a structure and sort of like a way to get out of my self that was so useful for me. But also it just like felt good to like be trying, be trying to help other people. You know, like one of the first things that we did was we're organizing, they're trying to get the, uh, neighborhood council for skid row and just to like, be around people that, you know are so vulnerable and that the city is so awful too and that they're all just, you know, like trying to get by and like still having like a lot of joy and, you know, optimism in a way that like, you know, I think people don't always see, and yeah, it just made me be like, who cares about my fucking stupid career? Like, you know, people have real problems and I want to be part of that too. So all the new Olympic stuff comes out of housing justice stuff, you know, which kind of just ties into all the, the, you know, the housing activism. But yeah, basically we're like, Hey, like LA can't be throwing a big party for itself. And for all of the parks in the city when it can't deal with like the thousands of people that can't afford to live anywhere in the city anymore. Right. You know, and just their policy for the last decade forever, I guess it's just been, you know, to suite people and to put them in jail. And clearly that isn't working for anyone. You know, the only, the only actual solution is to house people. So yeah. You know, when they started doing the Olympic bed, we were just like, well this is an insane thing for city council to pass and just sort of drawing attention to like how much power city council has an LA and sort of how out of tune with the needs of LA, all of those people are, they're all landlords. They all, you know, they just saw voted against like an eviction moratorium, you know, they're just, they're, they're defending the needs of property owners and like most people in LA are renters and yeah, there's just like a lot of stuff like LA is a very extreme place always. And the way it's been laid out is very segregated purposely. And there's a lot of class issues obviously. And housing is the way that a lot of it manifests. Um, so yeah. And then we started talking to people in other cities that had either had or, or successfully gotten rid of the Olympics. Um, because it just causes gentrification everywhere it goes. It causes environmental catastrophe. So we talked to people from Rio. Um, some of the new Olympics people went to Tokyo last summer to meet with the comrades there who there were people who had been like pushed out of a building for the 60s, uh, Tokyo Olympics and then were being pushed out of another building for the 2020 Olympics to the, from the building they had been relocated into. So yeah, they just called off the Tokyo Olympics for this year cause of uh, cause of Cove ed. But yeah, it's just the whole thing is like about, you know, people, people over profit and it just seems clear like this crisis has made it even more clear that like, our system isn't working a system that privileges profit at all costs and expect people to be just like working and making money 24 hours a day every day and like can't function when that's not happening. Right. That obviously isn't working. Um, but yeah, so my, my grandmother was a German Jewish athlete who was supposed to compete in the 1936 Olympics for Germany. Um, and then Hitler came into power and she was like kept on the team for a long time cause they weren't sure if the world was going to boycott if they did just sort of openly talk about being eugenicists. Um, and ultimately Hitler just got like cocky enough to be like, fuck it and cut my grandmother from the team and said she wasn't a good enough athlete, which was not the real problem. Um, but she was able to escape, you know, to, to England and then America because of it. So I've just always been thinking about, her name is Gretel Bergman. She's super cool. Um, yeah, no longer with us, but like a very inspiring person in my life always. Yeah. I just, I think I've always just been interested in like issues of like fascism media, how those things work together, you know?
Speaker 2:Right. Because, well yeah, for one, I love the piece you wrote in the new Yorker. I believe about your grandmother and the Olympics. Um, and I'm definitely ready to see the, uh, film, the version one day by you too. I hope there's a German movie. Actually I haven't seen it, but there's like a about it. Yeah, that's cool. But I also feel like, um, when you bring up like fascism and media, it's like the Olympics is something that like you can for people who aren't particularly patriotic or like I for example, didn't grow up in like a super patriotic per se household or like super into U S nationalism even though my parents are both from here. Um, but at the same time the Olympics were a huge, huge thing. And so like I feel like just expanding the narrative around how we talk about the Olympics is really interesting. Yeah, for sure. And like one thing we talk about in Olympics a lot is that the 84 games, which like turned a profit because of sort of extraordinary circumstances where they got filled out by McDonald's. But you know, the city of LA is always like, Oh, they were good. So it was great. But
Speaker 3:they also, you know, that was when they started doing gang sweeps and doing just sort of like, you know, random arrests of, of black and Brown youth in LA. It was when a lot of displacement happened. You know, they locked up all the homeless people for the 84 Olympics. Yeah. We just have, we just keep saying like, there's no reason to think that they won't just do that again. You know, they have even admitted to some extent like the cloud. Yeah. And we believe that a lot of the, you know, this was on a lot of the really militarized policing in LA started that, you know, then really accelerated with police chief Daryl Gates and you know, that we really believe was part of the what led to the 92 uprising. Right. It was like setting the stage, increase military freight. It was like, you're like, you know, yeah. You're, you're harassing people just, you know, illegally, even beyond the bounds of like how the police normally harass people. But it also, yeah. Normalize the type of harassment that is now just completely commonplace that something like the Olympics, you know, just makes worse. Cause it also makes it a national special security event, which means like ice comes in and gets free rain. Yeah, we don't want that. Don't want that.
Speaker 1:That was Tierney talks to Molly Lambert. Thank you Molly for being on the show. If you're not already, please follow her at Molly Lambert on Twitter and on Instagram. Read her work in the new Yorker. Consider picking up the Eve baddest collection. And if you enjoy this episode, please send it over to a friend. We're not shy over here, we're trying to build an audience. We want to amplify our engagement. We want listeners, we want to provide you with that little SMR tickle in your ear as you socially distance. And when I say we, I mean me and Margo[inaudible], the excellent audio producer and engineer who makes this happen. So until next time I'm about to like this joint and thinking about something I want to talk to you next.